As a Christian, you're called to love others regardless of how they might treat or mistreat you. We're all to respect and care for others as children of God.

Our Savior sacrificed his life in love for those who neither respected or acknowledged him. We're urged to follow his example.

In any case, I feel that your question is a rather dangerous one with sweeping generalizations...

You break the law you are supposed to pay a penelty, right? Nations are supposed to enforce their laws...

Murderers and Rapests break the law, so we are supposed to set an example by letting them free to do whatever they want, solely because we are supposed to love them???

And I'm generalizing? Actually I was basing this statement off of a Majority, and there's more than one way this can be measured...

There was a poll done recently to determine the way whites view hispanics and how hispanics view whites (and how whites view whites and hispanics view hispanics). The results are stagering, and I shall sum them up here...

Whites viewed hispanics at a majority of being honesty, hard working, law obiding, and overall (which I agree with myself). Interestingly enough the ratio of how whites felt was within the margin of error identical to the way hispanics saw them selves.

Hispanics viewed whites at a majority of being dis-honest, lazy, law breaking, and pretty much a low over all view the vast majority of the time (no where close to the way whites viewed themselves).

Or to break it down, Whites have good opinions of Hispanics the vast majority of the time, however HIspanics hold very low views of Whites the majority of the time. Granted these are race based, but I think it's safe to use these numbers for this type of debate based off of the fact that illegals regularly state that any actions against illegals are in fact racest actions against hispanics (not my choice of words, but theirs)...

At the same time none of this goes into the fact that the majority of illegals seem to not want to learn our language, or even identify themselves as Americans. Being the ratio of flags I've seen the past few days have been 100 to 1 Mexican flags to ANYTHING ELSE, that would argue 99% of the people who are protesting for their rights do not respect the country they are demanding rights in (I won't even go into thoes people who honestly feel California is part of Mexico).

If they want rights in America, and they want to become Americans, why not hold up the American flag to stand up for their American rights???



For the record we treat our illegals in American 10,000 times more kindly than Mexico does to it's illegals (Mexico has been repeatedly identified by the UN as violating the human rights of it's illegals). America's immigration laws are also one of the most lax (if not the most lax) in the entire world. Not to mention the fact that we regularly don't enforce what laws we do have...


The bottom line is all the illegals are called illegals for a specific reason: They broke the law by entering this country illegally. We regularly dish out billions of dollars every year to these people out of our pockets (for things like free housing & free health care) to take care of these people for years, and yet they still think we aren't doing enough. They want more, and in the mean time we are having to deal with things like hospital after hospital closing because of the fact that once an illegal is released from the hospital, they pretty much disappear without paying. Schools are graduating fewer and fewer kids because so many of them refuse to speak English, which in turn slows down the rate of teaching for thoes who actively speak English. And on top of that if any Mexican citizen chooses to murder an American, then runs back to Mexico, there's a pretty good chance he will be able to live without fear of ever being brought to justice.

To boil it down, with all the slaps in the face on top of the financial burdens California alone is experiencing, it's only a matter of time until total break down of society. We won't be able afford taking care of the poor or protecting the innocent. We won't be able to help others in need...


And last but not least, NONE of this takes into accoutn the fact that thoes who come here illegally are regularly exploited by citizens. They are in a sence a slave labor. They live 50 to a house, they work for less than minimum wage, they recieve NO benefits. So if you take this into account, just by ignoring what's happening, we aren't properly loving our neighbor as our selves, now are we. At least by controling immigration and doing something about thoes who are here, we can ensure they are treated as every person deserves...

Oh yeah, and I didn't include the fact that the people most adversely effected by illegal aliens is the poor. As someone who is working for a small salary trying to make ends meet, getting sub-par benefits can easily be forced out of a job by someone who is willing to work for even less and no benefits.

I'm not asking anyone to ignore the problem. I'm just reiterating the fact that we are to sacrificially love others, whatever their backgrounds or actions.

There is a difference between loving a murderer and a rapist and letting such individuals go free. Despising such individuals might mean condemning them to death. Loving them might mean rehabilitating them as best we can and/or improving the social structures that produce such individuals.

In any case, Jesus Christ died--gave his life--for those who persecuted, tortured, and finally killed him.

We are all undeserving of such love, yet it has been given to us, and we have been asked to share that same love with others.

Love does not imply inaction. In fact, it often requires the most drastic and frightening kind of action--self-sacrifice.

I agree with you in the sense that the current situation is bad for both legal citizens as well as for illegal immigrants. So, let's discuss the issues with intelligence and empathy--and most of all, with love--rather than impugning, disrespecting, or disregarding any particular group or individual. :-)

The only problem is, we have given and given and given. We have shown them more courtasy than any other country would ever do.

The more we give the more they demand. The more we try to control a growing problem the more we are disrespected.

All the wile, the more time goes on the more difficult it becomes to help thoes who were in need long before the people came.

If Jesus were to approch someone to offer them help or healing, then someone jumped in front of that person disrespectfully demanding they be given priority, that they deserve money & wealth & power and they should get it before the other person were to recieve help or healing, I highly doubt Jesus would have responded with kind words to the person in question.

I have nothing against the individuals in question, and I know not all fall into the same category. It's impossible to talk about any large group of people without any generalization. But when people make demands for things they really have no right to demaind, while disrespecting the people to whom they are making demands to, it's something that can't be ignored. The fact is things continue to deteriorate due solely to the fact that nobody is saying anything about what's happening, and so more demands are made and more and more people come asking for even more demands... A point comes when anybody would say enough is enough...

It would be like asking me to jump, then I would respond how high. Being handicapped I would proceed to try to jump that high, but likely would come nowhere close to that high. To then demand that I jump higher and to daily disrespect me because I won't, even when I say it's impossible for me to get any higher, and even though I keep trying to jump that high. So they continue to disrespect me, ignoring the fact that I've clearly proven to them I am handicapped, what am I supposed to do??? Spending the rest of my life jumping in place is not very likely to ever make things better, and isn't likely to ever satisfy the person in question. Should I still continue to keep jumping??? Will jumping in place do any good at this point, or would I be better off trying to good in other forms for other people? How could I do this if every time I try the person in question continues to demand I jump high enough and gets in my way preventing me from doing good for others???

We can't continue to absorb the massive amount of people that come in here every year illegally. And we can't continue to play coy every time more is demanded from these people who entered illegally... All that has been accomplished to date is that more and more people continue to come...

There are legal means to go about it, my wife entered here legally about 6 years ago (though I could easily go on about how even though she was legal the person brought her here to be a slave, and how much easier it would be to enslave someone who isn't legal).

But the bottom line is if illegals don't like the way things are, their best alternative is to try to go about getting citizenship legally (or rather, marry someone who is a citizen and who they TRUELY love, or leaving the country and re-entering legally) and they can complain & disrespect us all day long & I won't complain (thought I wouldn't be very happy I can admit). Unfortuantly no matter how anybody seems to say it politely, none of them have listened. The time for being polite is quickly comming to an end and the time to be brutally honest is now beginning...

Also, if you think that my statement is completly out of line with Jesus's example, I refer you to Matthew 21:12-21:13...

Jesus stated they had turned a house of prayer into a "den of robbers". To make a statement such as this in this time was an extremely profound an controversial statement. To refer to thoes in the temple courts as robbers was a choice of extremly harsh words, and the fact that he made such a short statement with little detail could easily be argued as generalizing (especially durring this time period). It was also a rather dangerous statement for the time.

How is my statement completely out of line with the manner in which Jesus responded in Matthew 21:13???

I agree with a lot of what you're saying Bobby. I just hope that we can talk about policy changes in a manner that tries to serve and love all who are involved--and without disrespecting any group or individual.

In any case, I think it's difficult to conjecture what Jesus might or might not have done in any particular hypothetical situation. Perhaps a parallel biblical example to your illustration about someone jumping in front of Jesus can be found in the disciples' incessant vying for power and authority. Jesus continually admonished them for their lack of faith, and he did go as far as calling Peter "Satan." But, despite the disciples' myriad faults, Jesus loved them with his life. Peter would later became the "rock" of the church.

In regards to the Den of Robbers example, I think it's difficult to use it to justify similar actions of our own. One important trait that separated Jesus Christ from us is his divinity. As a result, he possessed a divine and perfect judgment. Biblically, we're repeatedly told not to judge others and that God is the only judge. The reason for this is because we are so flawed and limited. Thus, we're called to love with liberality. :)

By that sentimate if we are to follow Jesus's example, but only selectively, how are we to know which examples we are and aren't capable of properly following???

Because there is a divine and a human element in Jesus, we can, and should, strive to be all that Jesus was inasmuch as we recognize that we are not God. We cannot walk on water, multiply loaves... or pronounce any truthful kind of judgment.

Thus, we allow God to be God in God's perfect judgment. We're never asked to participate in the act of judging others. In fact, we're continually warned against doing so. As the greatest commandment attests, above all, we are called to love. Loving others does not require judging them; it asks that we act indiscriminately... unselectively.

We can't judge others, true, but we can judge their actions and respond to their actions accordingly. It's one thing to say these people are bad people, and another thing to say that the things these people are doing are disrespectful and make it hard for me to support what it is that they are demanding.

If we couldn't judge people actions, we could never punish thoes who have done wrong. We would have to let murderers and rapests run free because we wouldn't be able to say what they did was wrong and deserves punishment. By the same sentiment, no Christan should be trying to stand up against abortion because how could we judge that action as being something that is wrong???

I never said anything is wrong with the people... I simply stated that with the tactics their choosing to use, I cannot respect what it is their demanding. Not only are they actively breaking the law, but their disrespecting citizens (and documented workers as well as other legal immigrants) at the same time that they ask for more leeway in breaking the law. I simply am stating that if they choose to break this nations laws, and they choose to disrespect this nation while doing it, why should I choose to say I supoort these demands???

We cannot give everybody what they want, and as Christians we should not be trying to give everybody what they want, nor should we want to give everybody what they want.

I belive I asked a very valid question, and I did so in a very short and purposely harsh way. My choice of words was chosen very specfically for it's bluntness and it's harshness. The whole purpose for the manner in which I asked it was solely to provoke some kind of challange to my statement... I chose both the subject and the short tirade because they both were phrased is such a way that people who disagree with the sentimate are more likely to respond to it. I was able to turn a very long logical agument and series of questions into an emtion drawing sentence that most people who came to this post would actually read...

Easy questions have been asked on this issue for a very long time, and the most common responce in this regard is a chant of "racist, racist, racist". The only way I could ever draw out a logical arguement to the issue is to use such blunt harsh questions so that someone (instead of simply chanting and or refusing to listen all together) will open themselves up for a discussion or arguementon the merrits of the statement. The fact is I made more points in my discussion with you (even though the challenge was not the angle I was expecting to discuss) than I ever could have with a simple logical post I could have made.

Sometimes it takes a harsh statement to open up a logical discussion...

The truth is, if I had done a long detailed pointent post about the issue, nobody would have even bothered to read it here (including you). If I had tried to address my arguement with details in person in front of people who disagreed with my perspective, and even did so in a kind manner, the "racist" chant would have started long before I got 1/100 the way though the statement. And my entire arguement would have been unheard, and I would have recieved a lable long before I actually even got to say anything.

Every minute that goes by without saying anything is quite literally another $22,000 of tax money going to a people who don't respect the fact that they are recieveing it, instead of going to people who may die without it.




All this boils down into this; If people refuse to listen to facts and long logical explinations, and I'm not supposed to use simple harsh questions and statements to address the issue, then the only other alternative I have is to say nothing. And saying nothing is exaclty why these issues have been ignored for so long.

Yes, there is a difference between judging people and assessing a situation to make the most appropriate decision. However, when you make a statement that a certain group of people are not worthy of respect, that seems to be exercising the former... and that's the reason why I posted a response to your blog.

As far as the necessity of using harsh words in order to draw attention to the subject, and the fact that you believe that I would have never read your post had you not used such words, I believe that you're now judging me... and the rest of your audience. I'm not sure how much you know about me, but I am very concerned about such issues (I've been a high school teacher, a worker at a rehabilitation home for abused and criminal youth, a Peace Corps volunteer, etc.) and I would have read through your post regardless of its tone. In fact, in my experience, the use of such harsh words usually polarizes people instead of facilitating healthy, fair discussion.

All I've wanted to ask for is that we treat this situation in a way that does not marginalize or disrespect any particular group, hispanic or white... or any other group...

Let us be moved to action, but let us act in love: through "... compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience."

:)

I'm able to factually discern what people do and don't read on my blog, as my system logs can literally show how often a page is accessed, the trail to get to that page, and how long someone stayed on the page before leaving for all users who access the page, no matter where they access it from. It's not 100% accurate but it's pretty close.

I based my statement off the likelyhood that you do not regularly read my blog. And I can base this on the fact that this was the first post you responded to. My wife informed me the other day that she made a post on her Xanga blog that was a copy of my post here, and linked to it. And I saw that your blog is on Xanga in the Hypernike group which is the group that her Xanga blog is in, so this means this is the most likely reason you came across this post in the first place. I could be wrong (I have a Xanga blog in that group too, but it only has a link to here with no other details, and its never updated), but I used a logical discernment to determine what was most likely course you used to get here.

You can tell me honestly if I'm wrong, so yes I made assumptions, but when I do I base them on good reasoning and research.

What I can do completley accurately is discern what my blog audience does as a whole based off of my logs. Everything is tracked from downloading large files off my site, to the downloading of a 48 byte 1x1 transparent gif image that I use as a spacer and that pretty much never even noticed (you've downloaded it multiple times every time you visited my blog).

As for disrespecting a class of people, you are bending my words to your own meaning. I stated I don't respect the demands they are making for their rights because they are disrespecting citizens durring their demand.

And I NEVER said they are not worthy of respect. I would like you to point me where I said I do not respect illegal aliens, and that illegal aliens deserve no respect.

I don't believe they are due the rights of citizens (as they are disrespecfully demanding) because they broke the law to come in here. And what I said was I do not respect the demands they are making for these rights because of disrespect they are displaying (and have regularly dispalyed) while making these demands... I have never said these people deserved to be stepped on, spit at, pushed around or called sub human. It boils down to that I belive they do not deserve the rights that law obiding citizens do. To say it another way, I do not believe they deserve to recieve rewards for breaking the law, especially when all they do is disrespectfully demand more rewards. Many of them get rewards many legal citizens do not get.


And again, I ask you, what good have the logical arguements done to date? The leaders of these groups come forward and simply state that anybody who does not believe these law breakers deserve the rights of people who became citizens legally is a racict, and they don't bother to acknowledge the logical questions these so called racists put forward.

Hey Bobby,

I did come to your blog after I read the post on your wife's xanga. But, I hope you'll believe me when I say that I would have continued to read on with or without the post's incendiary language, since the topic of immigration, and social issues in general, is very important to me.

Anyway, I apologize for having incited all these arguments. I suppose I was mostly reacting to the tone of your posts, and I apologize for perhaps going too far.

In any case, I just wanted to reiterate that I do agree with a lot of your concerns. However, I think that we diverge in how we approach the tasks of talking about and dealing with these issues.

Anyway...

I'll be back in California in about a month or so, so I'm sure we can have plenty of time to continue the conversation... ;-)

I actually met you at the Hypernike/Career Group gift exchange this last December... though I probably wasn't that memorable of a character... ;-)

But, God bless! I do hope that the situation does get better for all involved. :-)

I actually wasn't able to place you based on your photo, and it's also impossible for me to do so by name, as that is always the very last thing I pick up when meeting someone...

I do use harsh language on occaision, but mainly to stir up some kind of discussion, and pretty much only in political issues that to a large degree have already been beaten to death... And just because I post something such as this, does not mean I agree with the statement 100%...

There was a story in the news several weeks ago where a professor had said that there are more men in math and science because they are biologically designed to be better in these subjects (or something very close to this). He later stated that the statement wasn't true (he didn't believe it himself), but he made it so he could get people started discussing the issue, primarily to disprove it. Unfortuantly it didn't work that way and he was criticized for his statement and the issue was discussed no further...

I actually think it sometimes takes someone to make symiler statements to really get people to fully open themselves up on the issue. And many of my harsh statements are done so just to try to get people to discuss the issue by factually refuting the statement, as apposed to immedatly jumping to lable me before fully reading it. I belive in the end it can often lead people to be more honest about how they see the issues, and more logical in the way they talk...

And I do get a little enjoyment out of a good arguement, but at the same time I never take any statements made personally. Even if someone doesn't share my views it normally means nothing about who they are as a person. Its something I used to do with my mom and I think it really allowed both of us to understand the other side of the issues (we have opposing political views) in ways we would have never elected to do otherwise.

I do want to appologize for some of my loss of control, please don't take it personally. Much of what you said did in fact make a lot of sense to me, and I likely measure my words a little more carefully in the future.

Though as always I'm likely to make a few outrageously blatant and at least to a small degree somewhat true statements in the future, as when it comes to political issues, I normally have strong views...